Then wouldn't it be a totally different place to live?

There are rules that YHWH gave us regarding our daily lives. There are categories for our relationships to the earth, each other and to Him. It includes our animals. How we treat them, how we kill them to eat them and how we dispose of them. I will share with you the rules and the understanding of them. First of all the kinds of animals and foods you can eat is very important. Shrimp for example is an abomination. Shrimp is high in cholesterol, but the reason for them being an abomination is they mostly eat poop from other sea creatures for their diet, or dead fish birds , ect that have rotted on the bottom of the sea bed. You will also note that pork is a definite nono. Pigs too are willing to eat anything that you put in their path, scavangers. The also do not sweat, so no toxins are released from their bodies, maybe that is why. But for me knowing He knows the why is enough. In the bird catagory again, no scavenger birds are eaten, only the birds that eat grains and bugs. The fish category too, seems to divide them by if they have scales or not to whether they eat dead stuff.

So on killing an animal. It is done with the sharpest of sharp knives and the jugular vein is suppose to be cut. The pain this way is minimal and the huge so called Kosher plants that today are in place are in no way the way YHWH intended. He meant for us all to grow and kill and process our own food. I have done so with chickens, but with beef, not, but I wish I could. I would trust it a lot more if I did.

There are also rules of cruelty . Like not taking the milk meant for a kid and boiling them in it. Its just being kind to the animal. Not doing that, it has nothing to do with eating milk and meat at the same time, but then man got into the mix and started all these "other ideas" with the Words YHWH gave us. The animals also get a day off, Sabbath, so no work for the stranger in your gates, that means you maid, too gets the day off, you cannot work her, while you rest and your ox too. All this stuff is in Deuteronomy and if we lived the way it tells us, then we wouldn't have all those problems you speak about Midnight.

In fact He said in here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV That if you don't follow His rules then you will reap a curse.

26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Its not just Adam and Eve's failures that have brought a curse on us and this failing earth, it is our daily decision to ignore the Word of YHWH and His knowledge and understanding as unworthy.

Hope this helps.

Barb - here is where we must agree to disagree.

Verses Romans 1-4: “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

As a Christ following Gentile, I don't believe the dietary laws of Moses apply to me. I believe these laws were given to Moses and the Hebrew people after they obtained their freedom in Egypt to set them apart as God's chosen people.

I fully understand that Paul is addressing several audiences in this letter to the Church in Rome - the Jewish believer, the Gentile believer and the Pagan believer. For the Jew, the Law was part of their heritage and birthright. Not keeping the Sabbath or eating anything which to them was unclean under the Old Covenant was completely and utterly unthinkable. For the Gentile or former Pagan, submitting themselves to the Law of Moses given to Israel was, in light of their culture and the New Covenant, equally unthinkable. (There was another issue kicking around in this arena - that of former Pagans not wanting to have anything to do with food sacrificed to idols.)

Jewish and Gentile believers alike with a thorough understanding of the New Covenant did not concern themselves with the specifics of keeping the Law of Moses. The Law of Christ, the Law of Love, the New Covenant, was now their concern. Was it okay for both Jew and Gentile to walk in their respective heritages and traditions?

Romans 14 verses 5-8 gives us the answer: “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”

Continuing in verses 9-12, “For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:
‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.”

Paul places the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ in their proper contexts in verses 12-18: “Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.”

Interestingly, Paul repeats the New Covenant view of the issue at hand here regarding clean/unclean foods in verses 19-21: “Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.”

Romans 14 is one of my all time favorites because Paul admonishes that when a Christian proceeds with a certain action, he must “be fully assured in his own mind” (v. 5) that what he is doing does not violate his own conscience. The conscience is a sensitive instrument, and is a person’s most valuable endowment in “nudging” him in the proper direction as he grows in knowledge.

The conscience is not the final arbiter of right and wrong (Proverbs 14:12). It must be educated. Yet, in its proper place, it is a prized gift from God, and the Christian must guard against it becoming hardened (cf. Ephesians 4:19; 1 Timothy 4:2).

This is why, at the conclusion of the chapter, Paul cautions that doing something in violation of one’s conscience (even though the issue be religiously or ethically neutral), is sin. One must be able (in the case of eating “meat,” for example) to eat or drink “of faith,” i.e., with a clear conscience (v. 23). A clear conscience does not make a wrong act right, but a violated conscience can make a right act (in terms of its basic nature) wrong for that individual.

No Christian has the ability to look into the heart of another child of God, and judge the motives behind his actions (1 Samuel 16:7; 1 Corinthians 2:11). Hence, in many matters we must leave judgment to God, who will always do what is right (Genesis 18:25). In the ultimate reckoning, we are responsible to the Lord, not to our brethren (vv. 4, 8-12, 22).

Paul was a Jew in the supreme sense of that term. His loyalty to the Mosaic system was beyond reproach. As he instructed his Jewish brethren in the more advanced elements of the gospel, he acknowledged the temporary design in the Law. His letters are filled with affirmations of the Law’s abolition. The Mosaic code provided no means of ultimate justification. One has only to read the argumentation in several of his epistles, e.g., Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, 2 Corinthians, and Colossians, to see the clear picture regarding this matter.

And yet the great apostle was ever sensitive to the spiritual needs of his Jewish brothers, exerting himself to accommodate their misunderstandings until they were able to access a richer comprehension of truth.

Though Paul knew there was no salvation associated with circumcision (Galatians 5:2, 6), he nonetheless had Timothy, a preaching companion whose father was a Gentile, circumcised so as to not be offensive to potential Hebrew converts (Acts 16:3).

He knew there was no redemptive virtue in temple ceremonialism, yet he yielded to a purification ceremony in order to defuse a volatile situation in Jerusalem (Acts 21:26). That selfless act cost him four years in prison (Acts 24:27; cf. 28:30). The apostle openly affirmed his willingness to subordinate himself to those of lesser knowledge for the sake of their souls (1 Corinthians 9:19-23).

What a man!

While I do love the writings of Paul my interpretation is very different from what you see and let me point out this fact. Paul was addressing problems to a group of people, in letters addressed to them in particular. No where in any of the letters do you find the words. And YHWH said to write this or that. My understanding of the reasons for these letters are also most likely very different from yours, I know it is different from the church in which I was raised. Yes, we disagree, but I was addressing a specific question that was asked by Midnight. You stated no one could live by the 613 laws, and that is true, we all failed the mark. But one of the differences in us is that I do not believe salvation is from these rules and laws, instead, I know that the salvation I have is from death because I broke those laws.

If we did live by the laws given, then there would not be a beast system with today's problems. YHWH didn't change His mind about the law. Christ said over and over if you love me you will keep MY commandments. And at the end of days, the enemies of God's enemy is described by keeping them also.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


The commandments are the things we are to strive to live to do , if we do so, and repent when we fail, then Father is faithful to forgive us and the blood of Yahshua cleanses us from that unrighteousness. But if we continue in sin, breaking those commandments, there is not any repentance, or forgiveness or cleansing, we remain unrighteous. It is why we have become the nation and yes the world we are, cursed. I believe that is the delusion of the church and the failure of it in these days.

Barb and Blue, I like what both of you bring to this site. But the Bible and the Torah aren't where I am looking as I continue my search. But I respect the fact that these sources are very meaningful to you. There is some good material there but ...

Please don't be offended when I say I believe both sources have the fingerprints of powerful people all over them.

How can I be offended when you are right. The translators, the theologians, and the congregation all with their needs and ideas and even blatant attempts to bring things to their own ends and to get what so many want more than anything, money have taken the Word and changed it to something never intended. The love of money is the root of all evil and the Word has been twisted and turned for just those purposes. Its not just the Torah or the Bible, those are all words, without relationship. I understand and I do pray you find what you are looking for Midnight. I didn't find everything in one day, and I think if anyone did, then they might be finding the wrong thing. The journey is part and parcel of all learning. You are on your way, that is the important thing.

Midnight - I, too, am not offended in any way. As you can see here, Barb and I each interpret scripture differently. See the comments above about keeping the Old Covenant Laws.



What were His commandments? Love one another - not the 613 laws of Moses. He put paid to the Law of Moses at the Cross. I am saved from eternal soul death by Grace alone - not works. Not keeping the Laws of Moses but by accepting God's Grace, believing in Jesus and accepting Christ alone.

Yes, I also agree that the Bible has powerful fingerprints all over it. Think the Council of Nicea and others.

Continue your search - read all you can.

One area that I am focusing on right now is that of meditation and conscious awareness. The teachers from the East have much to offer us, IMHO.

Yes, I am a follower of the Christ. Yes, I do read my Bible every day and struggle and strive to live my life as He did.

I am also a follower of John Wesley. Wesley was a very interesting man and he teaches us to use "reason" when interpreting Scripture. God gave us a brain and it is up to us to use it.

BB,yes, you follow John Wesley, and this quote is not the Jesus I know, in fact, I call him by a totally different name. Sometimes I don't think that your Jesus and my "Jesus" are even the same person.




I do follow "Yah's Salvation", or Jesus I live like He did, yes he did say those things about love, but not in any way to do away with Yah's laws.

My "Jesus" knew the Father and His commandments all of them and kept His commandments, all of them, and he didn't keep the commandments of the "leaders" of the "jewish church" who had already added to the "Word of YHWH" by doing things like making it 'law" that you wash your hands before you eat dinner by using a special little system.

My "Jesus" said all the LAW was based on two things, loving YHWH with your whole heart, and loving other men and women as yourself. Not that there were the only two laws.

My "Jesus" also said:
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
and...

Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


All these men he was talking to, were already keeping the commandments of YHWH, they knew them from childhood, this and this:

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.


Are the only things that He added to the Word. And that is the key ADDED TO.

My point here BB is this, if Wesley and Graham and all the others system was soo perfect and good, then why indeed is the world such a horrible place to live. Why indeed is the earth so polluted and mens minds so depraved? Why did Jesus words fail to bring us peace and joy and real love when there is a church on every corner saying exactly the same thing you are, no law, but love. That has failed us miserably and I am glad I chose to look past mens traditions and lies, like WESLEY to the source and the TRUTH about what YHWH expects from us and what He will do for us if we follow HIS Word and not men's tradition.



So knowing the real Jesus is part of knowing YHWH and knowing YHWH is keeping His commandments and keeping His commandments are not a burden but a delight, because He is the creator of all things and He knows our bodies and our minds and our earth and all things He made, and He knows the best way to live to keep all those things healthy and happy.

I follow the REAL man of YHWH, Yahushua, who lived among us and died for our failings, but not in order that we can fail, but that through Him we can live and keep the commandments of YHWH and live life in a more perfect way. If every person on earth did do the things He commanded, instead of thinking we know better than HIM, then it would be a different place, not the place the " church" has given us, hell on earth.

I don't follow any man, but Him and His Father and them alone.

Btw it is not keeping commandments that give me salvation either, so that is another assumption you have made that is not accurate. I keep the commandments because I love YHWH, I love you and all other men and I love myself and I want to live in harmony with all those things. My "death" or need for salvation is I haven't done that perfectly, and my soul is saved from that not keeping the commandments perfectly by the shed blood of Yahushua, the Jesus that kept the commandments and didn't teach people it was good to break them. Just so you know.

The Truth in a nutshell!

Well, barb, I'm truly glad to know you don't keep the Law of Moses for your salvation.

We must agree to disagree on this.

The Law of Moses did NOT die on the cross, Jesus did, and through HIS death on our behalf, all believers have DIED as well — The Law of Moses is NOT dead, but WE are DEAD to IT (a crucial distinction) … It is our SINS which Jesus took upon His own head on the cross when He became SIN for us (He did NOT become the Law of Moses) — I think that is a pivotal point to keep in the forefront of our thinking as we read this passage & others relating to it … WHAT is REMOVED in Col.2:11 ??? NOT the Law of Moses (!!!) but our body of flesh, our body of dead works, our body of SIN … The decrees certified against us in verse 14 have been CANCELLED out and taken away (Because our Transgressions were forgiven, having been Nailed to the Cross in HIS Body) and the charges have been dropped against US since they were levied upon Jesus (in our stead) who PAID our DEBT BOND, He Himself being the Surety Forfeited because of our DEFAULT.”

BB the One who made us , knows us, His creation and His laws were made for our good. For us to reject His law is to reject His wisdom. The food laws, the commandments about how to treat one another all are and were good. Yes we all failed, yes we needed to have salvation from death, our eternal death. I see over and over in the Word about keeping the commandments,that we do it throughout our generations. I am trying to do that, as long as children are being born, I will. The church has taken all the pagan holidays and rituals and keep them , and then tell me, I am trying to work my way to heaven by doing what God actually said to do and keeping His feasts. I just don't get it. Mithra was born on Dec 25th not Jesus. Easter, named for the goddess Ishtar is not in any way holy, but only sexual fertility rites from Babylonian times, not the time of Christ. My Bible says not to even learn the ways of the heathen, but your church and most of them are keeping all the heathen ways and calling them christian. That is why I chose to look to the Word instead of the teachings of my church, your church or any other mans church. His wisdom is still just as good now as it was when He gave Moses the law.