.:. What has begun? .:.

Well - I am putting it out there - as this is a place to discuss such things -


The Seven Years Tribulation has begun.


I shall attempt to take this a few steps further and then to explore the reasons why. If the debate warrants it, I am happy to go into more detail at what it all may mean.

The questions is - what do you think


[.:.post 2042.:.]

Well, Sky, I will take a stab at this.

First, let me be blunt and say I simply don't believe this. I believe the tribulation days already happened just as Jesus predicted.

This tribulation scenario is not found in the Bible. This theory is created by combining interpretations of various passages from both the Old Testament and New Testament, assuming they are related, and piecing them together into this theory of prophecy. The basis of this theory is found in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Jesus told the disciples the temple would be completely torn down. The disciples asked Him when this would happen, what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. Jesus proceeded to list the signs of things to come. The events He listed showing the signs of His coming and the end of the age is known as the Olivet Discourse. Although this discourse is the foundation of the Seven Year Tribulation Theory, they have almost nothing in common. Consider:

1. Jesus never said the tribulation would be 7 years.

2. Jesus said all would happen in their generation.

3. Jesus never suggested any sizable time gaps between the signs.

4. Jesus never said the Antichrist would rule the world.

5. Jesus never said the tribulation would involve the entire world.

6. Jesus never suggested the temple would be rebuilt after it was torn down. There is no prophecy in the entire Bible that a fourth and future temple will be built.

7. Jesus never said the first half of this tribulation would be prosperous, while the second half would be the time of great distress.

8. Jesus never said Armageddon would bring an end to the entire world.

I am very interested in hearing your beliefs and listening to your reasoning.

Please understand that I am not coming into this debate with a closed mind (at least I hope not). The above is a list of my beliefs.

Let's talk about this and see what we can learn from one another.

Oh and BTW I also believe he did, indeed, return in the first century.

As I've repeatedly said, this is 2012 - it is time for each of us (and, yes, that includes me) to re-examine our beliefs.

from Wikipedia excerpted from a section on the Olivet Discourse which is quite a thorough study of this "sermon" or discourse of Jesus. One thing most agree on is that it was given during the week before His crucifixion :

Two opposing interpretations

Within conservative, evangelical Christian thought, two opposite viewpoints have been expressed in a debate between theologians Kenneth L. Gentry and Thomas Ice.[2]:pp.197-199

Tribulation as a past event (Dr. Gentry)

The Great Tribulation occurred during the 1st century.
Those events marked the end of God's focus on and exaltation of Israel.
Jesus' prophecies marked the beginning of the Christian era in God's plan.
The Tribulation is God's judgment on Israel for rejecting the Messiah.
The Tribulation judgments will be centered around local events surrounding ancient Jerusalem, and also somewhat affecting other portions of the former Roman Empire.
The Tribulation judgments are governed by Jesus as the Christ to reflect his judgment against Israel, thus showing that he is in heaven controlling those events.

Tribulation as a future event (Dr. Ice)

The Great Tribulation is still to come and is rapidly approaching prospect.
Those events marked the beginning of God's focus on and exaltation of Israel.
The prophecy says the Christian era will be concluded just after the church is taken from the world.
Rather than being God's judgment on Israel, it is the preparation of Israel to receive her Messiah.
The judgments involve catastrophes that literally will affect the stellar universe and impact the entire planet.
The coming of Christ in the Tribulation requires his public, visible and physical presence to conclude those judgments.
**********************************
Sky:


From a very personal standpoint, I have come over the last decade to believe that I am living in a very pivotal era in history. At first I started paying attention to the threat of "Bird Flu", and following sites that kept track of its progress, and discussed how to prepare for the possibility of a pandemic (a real one). From there I began to see that there were many threats facing us in these times, from natural disasters, to man-made ones of every variety, but with money and power at the root of all the evil man is perpetrating on his fellow man.

I am not sure if we are in the period of 7 years of tribulation as specified in the Bible, but I do believe that we are in a period of trials and tribulations that are necessary to purge this planet (and perhaps beyond?) of all that is evil on it now and prepare it and those of humankind who survive this terrible period for a new era of higher consciousness, a different dimension, a higher level of vibration for the planet and all on her.

I believe that the Kingdom of God is among us, and that it is our duty to work to bring it to completion, so that we live here on earth at the same level of spirituality, of consciousness, as those who live solely in that Kingdom, on the other side of the veil, which is becoming thinner all the time. Those of us who chose to live in these days came to help in the transition from this period in our history to the next level, knowing the dangers, horrors, evil, that we would face, but accepting the "job" of leading, guiding, helping those of the next generation to make the transition. We need leaders who know where they have come from, but who also have been taught how the world SHOULD be, and who have been encouraged (given courage) to stand for what is good and true to who we really are as a people of God, a prophetic people.

I believe in the wisdom of "original peoples", be they Australian aborigines, traditional Native Americans, Mayans, the Inca, or the many tribes of Africa, and many of whom I may be ignorant. They all speak of a time of transition, of a time of trouble, of tribulation, of trials and evils, that must be endured, suffered and overcome to pass to the next era of our common history.

I finally, over a period of years, came to accept the fact that I am indeed living in the "end times", amazing to me as that thought is. Yet I do not believe it will be the end of the world, or of the human race, but the end of an era. TEOTWASWKI I have been taught as a child and young adult that there will be times of great trial and trouble before Jesus comes again - the "Second Coming", so for me to accept that I was actually living in these times of trials was almost beyond belief, and yet I now believe it is so. Yet if Jesus is indeed going to come again, in a physical appearance, I do not believe that necessarily means that our world here will somehow cease to exist; I think it will usher in a new world of love, peace and understanding. This is what I am working for.

As usual, Ruts, you so eloquently stated my personal beliefs as well.

I believe there are times when it seems it is the time of tribulation - think the Mayas, Aztecs, Greece, Fall of Rome, etc. These times test us and prepare us for a period of darkness followed by an explosion of light/knowledge.

I believe that is what is happening now. Is it a war between Satan and God for men's souls? Hmmm, perhaps but I believe 2012 is just such a time. The various prophecy's from so many corners of the world point to something happening this year.

As I've stated over and over, I truly believe this is the time for each of us to look deep within ourselves and examine our most sacred, inner beliefs. Challenge those beliefs (like we do here) and find the path.



Isaiah 1-6 was my Bible study for Thursday. The verses above soooo resonated with me. As did this:



Sounds a bit uncomfortably familiar, doesn't it?

Excellent comments and I apologise for my silence so far. Have a load of issues to deal with. Will chime in when I have had my own Bible studies done.

As a short, I agree with you Blue - the classical church view on the Tribulation does not hasten my pace at all. I too have had classical teaching as a catechism(?) student from religion but have updated my views recently through studying the Bible and thinking about it. I do like the Old testament view the Hebrews teach and follow though and that's where I picked up the start of this thread. The expected coming of the Messiach in 2018 (5778) from Torah studies. That leaves 7 years in the time frame (as an opinion) and hence I popped the Tribulation window onto it in this thread question.

I will try elaborate more during the week.

Can't wait!

I am in full agreement with the view proffered here that the tribulation as such is a creation and not a fact as stated by religious proponents of the concept. There is good evidence published on this subject and we can list some of these if required. My intention was to allude to the coming "End of Days" facing the truth that all seems to be going to hell on earth with the growing threat of "A New World Order" being manifested on our behalf by the several "secret" societies that claim they are in control. That begs the view that the period of redemption has been delayed as prophecised a long time ago and recorded in the good book. To this avail - and being a scholar of the Tanach and the New testament with firm belief in Jesus the Christ's teachings, I offer the first view of this as follows:

"Start Quote

When is the End of Days

There has been much speculation in recent months that a great calamity will take place with the onset of the new millenium. Some have looked to potential earthly disasters caused by lazy computer programmers while others have looked for support for their dooms-day scenarios in the Scripture. Indeed, the Hebrew Scripture speaks of a period that will be accompanied by great disaster to be followed by a great redemption. This period has become known in popular parlance as "The Messianic Era" (Yemei HaMashiach) although the Hebrew Bible itself refers to it variously as "The End of Days", "The Great and Terrible Day of YHWH", or simply as "At that time" (BaYom HaHu; BaEit HaHi, etc.).

What is the "End of Days"

The term "End of Days" (Hebrew "Aharit HaYamim"), which has also been variously translated as "The Latter Days" and "The Last Days", has the meaning in Hebrew of "a long time from now" and there is no implication that the world will come to an end. On the contrary we read in Isa 66,22 that the heaven and earth will be renewed and that despite great change the covenant with Israel will continue in this future epoch:

"For as the renewed heavens and the renewed earth, which I create, stand before me, says YHWH, so will your seed and your name stand before me."

Indeed, after the initial upheavals, the End of Days will be a period of peace and universal obedience to YHWH as we read in Isa 2,2-3:

"And it will be in the end of days, the mountain of the House of YHWH will be established at the head of the mountains, and higher than the hills, and all the nations shall stream unto it. And many peoples shall go and say 'Let us go and ascend to the mountain of YHWH, to the House of the God of Jacob that he teach us from his ways and that we may go in his paths, for the Torah goes forth out of Zion and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.' And he will judge between many nations and rebuke many peoples. And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. And nation shall not lift up sword against nation and they shall no longer learn war."

The theme of all mankind worshiping YHWH is repeated in Jeremiah 31,30.33 [KJV 31,31.34]:

"Behold days are coming, says YHWH, and I will make with the House of Israel and the House of Judah a renewed covenant... And no longer shall a person teach his fellow and a man his brother saying 'Know YHWH!' for they will all know me from the littlest one to the greatest, says YHWH..."

Unless CNN has missed the scoop of the Millennium this era of peace and knowledge of YHWH by all mankind has not commenced. We can only conclude from this that the "End Time", accompanied by profound changes in the way we live and think, has yet to begin.

When will the "End of Days" Begin?

In the book of Daniel we see a number of prophecies which describe with varying degrees of detail the chronology of the End of Days. However, the prophet himself does not understand to what historical events this chronology refers. In his vision Daniel protests to the angel that appears to him:

"And I heard but did not understand and I said, 'Master, what is the End (Aharit) of all these things?' (Dan 12,9)

The angel explains to Daniel that the meaning of the visions will remain undecipherable until the events of the End of Days itself:

"And he said, 'Go Daniel, for the things are closed up and sealed until the end time." (Dan 12,10)

Although the exact year of the End of Days can not be learned from the Book of Daniel, there is no secret in the Hebrew Bible about when the End of Days will take place. In fact, the timing of the End of Days is spelled out explicitly in the Torah. In Dt 28-30 God lays down the terms of his covenant with Israel: If Israel keeps the covenant they will be blessed with abundance and peace but if they violate the covenant they will be harshly punished with a curse. In Dt 29,25-27 the people of Israel are warned that if they continue to sin the ultimate curse will be exile from the Land of Israel. Dt 30,1ff. then describes the final redemption:

"And it will be when all the these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, and you will return with your heart in all the nations wherein YHWH your God has cast you. And you will return to YHWH your God and obey his voice according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, with all your heart and all your soul. And YHWH will return your captivity and have mercy upon you and he will again gather you in from all the nations wherein YHWH your God has scattered you. If your dispersed ones be at the end of the heavens, from there will YHWH your God gather you and from there will he take you. And YHWH your God will bring you to the land that your fathers inherited and you will inherit it; And he will do good to you and make you multiply more than your fathers. And YHWH your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your seed to love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul in order that you will live."

We see from the above passage in Deuteronomy that after Israel repents YHWH will return their exile to Israel (a second time!) and will cut his covenant into the hearts of the people. Returning to Jeremiah 31,32 we see that the end of days is described as period in which the covenant of YHWH is written on the hearts of the people:

"For this is the covenant which I will make with the House of Israel after those days, says YHWH; I will place my Torah in their inner parts and I will write it upon their hearts and I will be to them God and they will be to me a people."

The End of Days of Jeremiah and the Redemption of Dt 30 are one and the same event. In Dt 4,30 we are told explicitly that the End of Days will be brought on by the repentance of Israel:

"...in the End of Days you will return to YHWH your God and obey his voice... And he will not forget the covenant which he swore to your fathers..." (see the broader context in Dt 4,25-31 from which it is clear that this refers to the exact same sequence of events as Dt 30,1ff.).

Thus there is no secret as to when the End of Days will take place. As can be gleaned from Dt 4 and 30, as soon as Israel repents and returns to YHWH, the exile will end and the period of the renewed covenant will begin. With the great majority of the People of Israel still in the exile, and those in the Land of Israel following the path of iniquity, this time seems far off. We can only pray that the People of Israel repent and fulfill their duty to be a guide to the nations. Until that day it is the duty of every human being, both from Israel and the Nations, to keep the commandments of YHWH in his holy Torah so that the time will come when:

"no longer shall a person teach his fellow and a man his brother saying 'Know YHWH!' for they will all know me from the littlest one to the greatest, says YHWH ". (Jer 31,33 [KJV 31,34])

A Final Note on Daniel

Even if we could decipher the chronology of the prophecies of Daniel (which Dan 12,10 indicates we can not do!) this would not necessarily give us a precise date for the End of Days. We learn in Dan 9 that a predicted end time can be delayed if Israel sins. At the beginning of Dan 9, the prophet looks into the Book of Jeremiah and discovers that the Babylonian exile is to end after 70 years. Daniel proceeds to pray to YHWH to forgive the people of Israel and to bring them back from exile. Was this a vein prayer since the fate of Israel was determined beforehand by the prophecy of Jeremiah? Why did Daniel see a need to ask for forgiveness when the time of the redemption of Israel was set in advance? If we look at Daniel's prayer we see the reason for his trepidation. Daniel calls to YHWH:

"Master hear! Master forgive! Master Listen and Do, Do not delay!" (v.19)

Daniel realizes that if YHWH does not forgive his people for their sins the end of the 70 years would be "delayed", perhaps indefinitely. This is an important lesson when trying to decipher the chronology of the end time in the Book of Daniel. Even if we can figure out what periods are referred to in Daniel's prophecies we must realize that if there is not repentance then the date of the Redemption will be delayed, as Daniel himself teaches us in his prayer.

End Quote"

There is more, but suffice for now to invite further debate...

I had to think long and hard on this, Sky, before responding.

To me (if I am wrong in my interpretation, please forgive me) there are two issues:

Redemption; and

Repentance.

As Christians, we believe we are redeemed from soul death and sin by the blood of the sacrificed Christ. As John Wesley would say "that's the easy part." That's the feeling you get when you first recognize that you are a mired in sin. That's the joy in your heart when you are baptized and realize that your sins are forgiven and you are "born again" (how I hate that phrase) in new life in Christ.

But the second "R" word - repentence. Ahhh now there we have the crux of the matter, don't we?

Some would say that true believers in Christ have no need for repentence.

Wesley's famous sermon on "The Repentence of Believer's" (see link below):

http://www.umcmission.org/Find-Resources/Global-Worship-and-Spiritual-Growth/John-Wesley-Sermons/Sermon-14-The-Repentance-of-Believers

says it all.

If there is no "inward change" after redemption then where are we?

It is here in the inner awareness so many of us fail.

It is here, IMHO, Eastern religions do a better job of speaking of "mindfulness" and "awareness."

Christ followers as a whole generally do a pretty good job of not murdering each other (though sometimes NOT); keeping the Sabbath (how about eating lunch at a restaurant after Church?) and the other laws of Moses. But what happens to us internally?

If we continue to gossip about our neighbor in their absence are we truly abiding by the Golden Rule?

If we love wealth, status and things of the Earth are we truly saved?

If we continue to judge the poor for morally corrupt behaviors while paying them substandard wages in order to profit from the labor are we truly saved?

And on and on and on with sinful internal behaviors.

No wonder God will delay the End of Days until we humans can get our act together and finally become Children of God - internally and externally.

Time for each of us to look inward at our our behaviors and realize that we are sinners - each and every one of us.

The way of the Cross is hard. The way to enlightment and perfection beckons to us like a shining light.

This is what repentance means - look internally; recognize your failings; change your ways and vow not to repeat your mistakes.

Be the person God meant you to be. Do the job He gave you to do.

The End Times will then be what God intended - a time of peace, joy and brotherhood for all.