Are Christians required to observe the feasts of the Old Testament?

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=592

Teaching: The Sacred Secret: God’s Gift to Us

http://writefromkaren.com/2011/03/27/teaching-the-sacred-secret-god%E2%80%99s-gift-to-us/


Yes, I'm still chasing this rabbit.

I am reading my bible daily now trying to find some where, some place in Scripture that points me to where Christians are:

1. Required to keep the Feasts;

2. Required to follow the Dietary Laws;

3. Required to keep Saturday Sabbath;

4. Required to use of the terms Yaweh and Yashuah for God and Jesus.

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong, I am just curious about why I was never taught these things either from my family or my Church.

This morning I found the two sites listed above.

In the first one - Are Christians Required to Keep the Sabbath, I found a couple of interesting things:

1. The question about "What does the Bible say?" and the question asked - To Whom?

I never thought about it that way before.

I had been taught that the Old Testament was the oral history of the Jewish people but the laws of Moses were not applicable to me, a Christian.

I never thought about the four Gospels (and Jesus, himself) speaking directly to Jews since there were no Christians at this time.

I never thought about Acts to Revelations as being directed specifically to Christians.

Interesting...

2. The Sacred Secret - see the second link above.

This was a complete, total, utter revelation to me. I must have fallen asleep in Sunday School or Church 'cause I never heard of this before.

This makes complete sense to me now. Now I get it!

Anybody want to talk about this?

What are your views?

TIA

As to Christians keeping all the feasts and rules of the Jewish religion, no, there is no question that Christians are not bound by these rules. Jesus often talked about the hypocrisy of many of the rules that had been made superior to the main Law of God - "Love God and love your neighbor" - by the leaders of Judaism to the spirit of the law. For example, he tells them, don't wash your hands when you have done "dirty" deeds and think that cleanses you; he ate often with those ostracized by the Scribes and Pharisees. He did "work" on the Sabbath, and lots more.

There was an ongoing disagreement for some time between Paul and Peter over the obligations of the followers of Jesus; Peter, as a Jew, believed that Christians should keep the laws of Judaism, but also follow the teachings of the Messiah - he could not even see that Gentiles should be brought into their community, and if they did they had to become subject to the laws of Judaism. This changed, and even Peter saw that those who became believers in Jesus were not bound by all the laws of Judaism, did not need to be circumcised (if they were Gentiles), etc.

But that just answers the superficial aspects of this question. I have never heard of this "Sacred Secret". I have briefly read from the two links provided above and need to do a lot more reading, research, thinking, etc. (if I find the time - lol) but there is something that makes me very uncomfortable about this idea. Yes, Jesus was speaking to Jews, but He is God, and he knew full well that his words would be studied, followed, loved by all who were to follow him throughout time to come. I do not believe that what comes after Jesus is more important, speaks to us Gentiles more, than the words of the Redeemer Himself. Perhaps I do not understand what is being said, and I need to learn more about this way of thinking. First, just who is behind this idea of a "Sacred Secret"? I have never heard of it either, Blue, and I bet the majority of those who follow Jesus today never have either.

Here's one brief example of something I am uncomfortable with, from the link above:


This to me infers that no matter how heinous are my crimes against God and man, I am still saved. My question is, does this mean that we can do whatever we want here on earth, and still experience the fullness of God's Kingdom when we die? That's sure not what I've been taught!

If I have time to look into this more, I will post more here.

This is a very interesting subject you have tabled Blue. I certainly concur with the view that our scripture will lead us to the the truth if we seek in earnest and pray for answers to our questions. I am a firm believer that Jesus came to open the gates to heaven and I also do not question the laws Moses was given. The ten commandments are unquestionable in my own mind as is the law Jesus left us with - to love your neighbor as you do yourself!

An interesting video popped up on my radar which I have great affinity with and am studying presently, so I list it here for consideration and further debate:







The ultimate prize for both our Creator and the dark force who controls this domain is the Soul of mankind.

We are blessed with the the support of the Holy Spirit and I do believe we are in the times to have this support if we seek in earnest.

Thanks for your responses!

Yep, Ruts - I too have great difficulty with once saved always saved. That is not a teaching of my Church, either.

However, what I find most interesting about this "Sacred Secret" is Ephesians 3:1-13.

I can't tell you the number of times I've read this and never really understood it. I think in these verses all my questions about returning to the Law of Moses, keeping the Saturday Sabbath, and keeping the Feasts are answered. For it is in these verses that the mystery (sacred secret, if you will) is revealed.

Ephesians 3:1-9
New International Version (NIV)



So from what I've been reading, Paul declares to the Epheisians (a Gentile community - totally Gentile - not Jewish - no Jewish customs/laws, etc) that they are now "heirs together with Israel."

Wow!

Jew and Gentile - neither better nor worse than the other but both joined as one new creation through Jesus Christ.

There you have it - the sacred secret. The "mystery" God has kept secret from the beginning. He hints at it throughout the Old Testament. The "holy apostles and prophets" Paul mentions are not Old Testament prophets but, rather, are the surviving 11 Apostles of Jesus (and Matthais and Paul, himself).

Jesus, himself, hints at it to Nicodemus in John 3:1-21



Can you imagine how Nicodemus felt? A reglious, pious Jew who knew he was one of the elect. He knew the Law, he kept the Law (as best he could) and he knew he was of the Covenant.

And, yet, Jesus has the temerity/affrontery to tell HIM that he must be born from above?

Nicodemus understands (as a learned Jew) that pagans/Gentiles can be converted to Judaism. It is through this conversion (baptism by water) that they enter into the Convenant and eternal salvation as he knows it.

Here, Jesus tells him that is not enough. Jesus tells this pious man that he must be "born from above." I think here He hints at the Sacred Secret - Pentacost, the Holy Spirit coming from Him to man and the inclusion of Gentiles into the Covenant of God through the new, administration of Grace.

Until Pentacost, God had never revealed to mankind this"mystery" - that of including Gentiles into his new Covenant and a new life in Christ Jesus. For had He revealed this secret, Satan would not have crucified Christ for it would not have been in his interest to unleash the Holy Spirit on mankind. Nor was/is it in his interest to bring more of mankind into the Covenant with God.

As a Christian, I believe the Holy Spirit wrote the Ten Commandments on my heart.

As a Christian, I believe that at my baptism I died to the Law of Moses and was resurrected into the Law of Christ - the new Covenant.

Does this rambling mess make sense to either of you?

I'm still not sure where this is taking me. But, IMHO, there is something here - something that I have missed in my Christian life. Something that is fundamental to understanding God's love and grace.

Blue, I really don't get it. I'm not sure what the question really is. You say you died to the law of Moses. Does that include the Ten Commandments or are you talking about the many restrictions, etc. that are in the Old Testament - washing, not eating certain things etc. Baptism welcomes me into the Christian community, the Holy Spirit comes upon me and marks me as His. It is also a call to mission, to go forth and spread the word of Jesus. But I have never been taught that I must turn my back on (die to?) the Law of Moses. Indeed, Jesus said that he came, not to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. In this I believe he speaks of the Law as the Ten Commandments, as he often showed his disapproval of the minor laws and restrictions imposed on the people when the main commandments, to love God and to love your neighbor were ignored.

You say that the Ten Commandments are written on your heart, true, but they were given by God to Moses... What is the point of this Sacred Secret? Is it to say that Jews are not able to go to Heaven? that they are doomed unless they are converted to some branch of Christianity? Or is it to say that God's grace falls on Gentiles AS WELL as Jews? Is the whole point here that Jesus went back to "Heaven" so that His Spirit could come upon us? I'm not sure there is really a question here, or at least I just don't get the point... sorry if I'm being dim.

Since I am confused about the question being asked, I'll fall back on what I often do - research. One of the links given to understand the Sacred Secret leads us to a page written by "karen" who makes posts based on the "Truth or Traditions" teachings. At this link I find that this link tells us that the site is maintained by Spirit & Truth Fellowship International. So I looked up Spirit and Truth International and find that it is an offshoot of a group called The Way International.

Here is some info on The Way International found on Wikipedia:

The Way International is a nontrinitarian non-denominational Christian ministry. The Way promotes itself as a Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry, providing service and direction on how to understand the bible so people can apply it and manifest the more abundant life.[5]

Here is the meat of their doctrine:

Students are encouraged to follow a list of biblical research principles, instructing that the Bible should be taken literally wherever possible, and where this is not possible, it should be assumed that the language is figurative. The Way encourages its followers to study their publications before beginning any personal research on a subject. In his book Order My Steps in Thy Word, Wierwille asserts that God designed the universe to support the Earth and the Earth to support his children who could love God in return.

The Way rejects the Trinity, and teaches that, unlike God, Jesus is not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. According to their ministry, Jesus did not exist before his birth except in the foreknowledge of God. The Way teaches that at his birth, God created the sperm to fertilize Mary's ovum, and is the literal father of Jesus.

Now I see why I was uncomfortable with what I read in the first posts about their beliefs; this is not what I believe, at all, but I am glad I went far enough in my research to see why my gut reaction was negative. Interesting discussion, though.

Now to your post, Sky. I too feel that we are living at a crucial time in the history of the world. I don't know if Jesus will appear during my lifetime, but God's time is not my time and all is an instant to Him. Nevertheless, it is more important than ever in the history of mankind to know whose side you are on in these days, to know what you believe in and never to swerve from that belief, no matter how hard the decisions we must make. Yes, Armageddon is a war of good and evil.

That being said, I cannot agree with the video that if I call Sunday my Sabbath, my day of worship (I worship every day actually) that I am worshiping Lucifer by going along with the Gregorian calendar. I would like to hear your thoughts on the video, so perhaps I can understand better what it is saying and why. TIA

Well, thanks for the research, Ruts. I'm a tad bit embarrassed that I did not do this myself.

The Way, huh?

But we still have the verses listed above in Ephisians regarding the "mystery", right?

As to "dead to the law", this is my understanding:

Galatians 4:4-5: "When the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons." Jesus Christ was born under the law — under its authority. He never broke the law, and did not deserve its penalty. By being born under the Jewish law, he was able to redeem Jews as well as those who do not have the law.

Galatians 4:21: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?" Paul is writing to Christians who were tempted to accept old covenant laws as requirements. [url]They wanted to be under the authority of the old covenant – not its penalty[/url]. Which law is Paul talking about? The same "law" that says that Abraham had two sons (verse 22). It is the law that contains Genesis — the law of Moses, the books of Moses. Some of the Galatians wanted to be under that law, and Paul was arguing against it.

In the above passages, "under the law" means [url]under the authority of the old covenant law[/url]. That is also its meaning in the only other occurrence in the New Testament: "Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" (Romans 6:14-15). We are not under the authority of the law, but under the authority of grace — but grace does not mean that we are free to do our own thing. Rather, grace comes with obligation — we are under the law of Christ. We must obey him.

Dead to the law

We see another revealing discussion of law in Romans 7:1-4. Paul speaks to the Jews: "Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.... So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God."

Paul says that we have died to the law — even the Jews have died to the law through identification with Jesus Christ. Therefore, the law no longer has authority over us, since we belong to Christ, not to the law. Christ is the one we obey, so that we can bear spiritual fruit. The law is contrasted with Christ, and it is the old covenant law that Paul is talking about — the Torah, the Law portion of the Scriptures. We can be under the law, or under Christ. Being under both is not an option.

Galatians 3 is also clear about the law. Verses 2 and 5 contrast faith with law. Paul is not talking about the eternal, spiritual law in this passage, nor is he talking about the sacrificial laws, which could not be kept in Galatia. He is talking about the Torah, "the Book of the Law" (verse 10). It is the law added 430 years after Abraham (verse 17), which includes all of Exodus and Leviticus.

Abraham's covenant was based on faith (verses 6-7), and we are heirs of his promise (verse 29). The law was added to that covenant because of the transgressions of the Israelites (verse 19), but the law cannot alter the Abrahamic promises that we inherit. Rather, the law — the books of Moses — was a temporary measure until Christ, the Seed, came (verse 19). "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law" (verse 25).

Here we see the same conclusion. The Scriptures are consistent. Christians are not required to obey the laws of Moses. They were glorious for a time, but their purpose has been superseded by Jesus Christ.

Paul was not against all law, of course. He talks often of the obligations that Christians have. Even in the book of Galatians, he concludes with exhortations about sins to avoid and righteousness to seek. These things are challenging — humanly impossible, in fact. We need to be led by God's Spirit and transformed in inner character into the pattern of Jesus Christ. He is the standard; the old covenant law is not.

We see more in the next chapter, with Paul's allegory of the covenants, Abraham, Hagar and Sarah. Hagar stands for the old covenant (verse 24), and Paul tells us to get rid of her (verse 30). Those who are under her covenant are slaves, whereas those under the authority of the new covenant have the full rights of children (verse 4).

In Galatians 5, Paul makes it clear again. Although the old covenant law enslaves those who are under it, we have been set free from that law (verse 1). But if we submit to the old covenant law of circumcision, then Christ is of no value to us (verse 2). We are either under the new covenant or the old; we cannot be under both at the same time. The basis of our relationship with God should be faith in Christ, not the law of Moses. But if we want to be under the old covenant, then we are "obligated to obey the whole law" (verse 3). Christians, however, are not obligated to obey the whole law. Paul is not talking about just sacrificial or ceremonial laws — he is talking about the entire law. The entire law of Moses is obsolete, and Christians are not under its authority.

Christians obey some of the laws of Moses, of course. We should not covet or lie to one another. But we obey these laws not because Moses wrote about them, but because they are part of the Christlike life. We are under Christ, not Moses. Christ tells us to love our neighbors, and the New Testament explains that this means we do not lie or covet.

That is my understanding. Thoughts?

BTW - thanks for the question - you just made my search for the questions above complete once more.

DSIL had me going there for a bit, now didn't he?

Dear Ruts - your inquiry to the intention of the video is a good one. I posted it for the interesting nature of the concept it presents, which I have never seen or heard of in any religious context. I do have a large affinity with the concept that our mind and our soul is what is currently being warred over - rather than the mere concept of a physical war, where immense loss of life is the principle as ascribed by mere leaders of a particular ideology and thereby fighting with their "enemy" in a "safe" rearguard position. Satan is responsible for the concept of war and killing imo.

As to the principal of the "law" being debated here - I am not really interested in find the "best" way of considering this dilemma as a Christian. There are several reasons for this - one being that personally do not believe in any "church" group or interpretation of the Bible (I will explain more on this later when the opportunity presents itself.) I do clearly understand the issue of "Moses's law" and what the Hebrews place themselves under and I have a large affinity for this too in particular the feasts and the principles they follow, as this is made clear to me in the aspects of my Spiritual school I study in. Again - more on this later. For me the Bible is the Holy revealed word of God. So I take things such as - it is for me wrong to partake of "blood products" and thus I changed my life 37 years ago and forsook "meat" and other blood product - becomming a lacto-vegetarian. This was my choice as to live and I am healthy and fit for it today. The law I personally follow is God's Law as given to Moses - the Ten Commandments. No discussion further there.

What makes great sense to me is that we were granted free will under the dispensation our our heritage of our DNA and physical created body - "In the Image AND Similitude". Image is easy, but what does similitude mean? I know - but again there are NO answers from the religious schools and for good reason. So in my free will I know I have choices but personally YHWH made it clear to me through scripture and Christ Jesus did teach about his - that I should work towards achieving God's Will in my life and my creations. No debate further on this from me.

As to sin, again a very obfuscatious subject and one I have my own understanding of. Yes - we suffer the indulgences of the seven deadly emotions or afflictions, but if I attempt to achieve God's Will in all my actions then I am not separate from God. Sin is in its most basic definition - "Separation from God" and acting in personal free will only.

I attempt to live with an understanding of achieving a "Living Faith" in my life rather than blind faith. I do not confuse myself by trying to understand "living under grace" as that portends to be blind faith. To me grace will be available when I "ask" for it in my earnest prayer to the Father.

I agree with the notion that a particular religious teaching making exclusions from God's Law is doubtful, as I am a firm believer in the Trinitised Godhead and no further debate on that from me. (Maybe to be debated later if necessary.)

As to the Sabbath - again for me it is not a subject to debate as I practice the Sabbath as commanded and I keep God's calendar - so I keep my Sabbath from Friday 6pm to Saturday 6pm and do no work, other than relax and some scriptural study. To observe the alternative calendars and then to try and defend this is stupid in my opinion as our history on this is plain if anyone whats to really know. And I agree that to worship our Father every day is the proper perspective. God commanded humanity to have a day of rest. what is to debate about this? It is just like the Agrochemical farming practice that smashes chemical fertilisers into the soil and hammer out max profit from very tired soil! Not letting the earth lie fallow every seventh year? Its actually common sense to let nature be nature (it is our Father's creation) and thus provide health and prosperity.

The most important part of this debate shows clearly that if we look for answers from "man's" interpretation of scripture in churches or faith groups, we can become rather confused or stifled. I keep my own counsel and do personal study to the "secrets" in my Bible. I believe and use the revealed name of my God - YHWH or Yahveh. (the word God is merely a title...)

"For those who have ears - let them hear"

If you seek - you will find.....

Interesting, Sky, for your ideas are very similar to my DSIL's. I haven't, yet, watched the video but will shortly and be back.

As I said in the first post, I continue to look for the reasoning behind his sudden change in belief. Your perspective and input is much appreciated. I am interested to hear more regarding your thoughts on these issues.

As to the baptism post above from Ruts, I have given this much thought and I think the difference in interpretation may be:

1. A protestant perspective versus a Catholic perspective on baptism (though I don't really think this is it); or

2. The fact that I was not baptized as an infant. The questions that were asked of me on my baptismal/confirmation day were different from those asked by parents of an infant. My parents were not involved in this question and answer portion of the rite. It may also be a remnant of an extreme hard shell, Southern Baptist background.

I first began this search because I had never heard of a Christian following the feasts, Saturday sabbath, etc. until my DD and her family abruptly shifted to this way of belief. Because neither she nor DSIL will discuss their belief system it has been difficult for me to understand the why of it.

DD goes along with his belief system but I don't think she truly "believes" that this is the way for her. Does that make sense? She talks about "the no more pork thing."

I, too, fully believe there is a war being waged for the soul of mankind. That war is not a physical war (although it sometimes can be) but is, rather, a spiritual one as well.

I also think I am much too old to give up Christmas and Easter. I love both of those holidays with all my heart. Christmas is a time of joy and peace for me. Oh yes, there was a time when Christmas meant a time of frazzle and over indulgence with very little Christ in it for me and my family. Those days are going away and we are focusing more on the Christ and less on the mass merchandising.

Santa Claus is going out of the house as well. Sigh - I will miss him but he is a distraction for me. I collected Santa figurines for many years and suddenly realized a couple of years ago that these figurines were taking over the house and the manger was crowded out as the main focus of the celebration.

East Texas and I began to celebrate the Advent season last year and will do so again this year. The lighting of the Advent candles on Sunday last year meant a great deal to both of us. The wreath and candles helped us to rekindle the anticipation of the birth of our Saviour. Christmas Eve was special to us once again and not because we were eagerly awaiting the sound of reindeer on the roof.

I want to put up a Jesse tree this year as well. I'm looking at the various homemade ornaments folks have posted online and this interests me. Yes, I realize this is a teaching tool for children but I figure we old folks can use a bit of a reminder, too.

I haven't convinced East Texas to put up the tree on Christmas Eve and leave it up until January 6th. Sigh! His mother always put up her tree the day after Thanksgiving and took it down the day after Christmas. My family did not put up the tree until a couple of weeks before Christmas and we always took it down on January 6th.

For me, Easter is the best time of the year. Palm Sunday is a time of joy. This is the time of baptism and confirmation. This is the time of palm waving and the hymn, Holy City.

Maunday Thursday is a time, for me, that is filled with awe. In my church, we take Holy Communion and sometimes members of the congregation wash each other's feet. To participate in the re-creation of the Last Supper is an awe inspiring time.

Good Friday is a time of great sadness. The Tenebrae service (which my church began to have a couple of years ago) is THE most sacred service I have ever participated in. The church seems filled with awe struck people. To watch the candles extinguished one-by-one; to see the Christ candle carried from the sanctuary; to hear the noise of the tomb closing - brings me to tears every single time.

To awaken before dawn on Easter Sunday and attend sunrise service has long been a tradition for both of us. To hear the choir break into The Hallelujah Chorus as the sun peaks over the horizion - well, I cannot adequately express in words what this means to me.

Back to the feasts, Sky. Does the keeping of the feasts help you in your walk with Christ? Do you keep the feasts to better appreciate Him?

Please understand that I am not trying to start a religious war of ideas/beliefs here but I am truly trying to understand why some people believe this is necessary and others do not.

I think also that some churches (for lack of a better word - faith communities may be better) have not done a good job of teaching about the feasts and how they relate to the life of Christ.

My DSIL was shocked to learn that Jesus was a Jew. Yeah. A lifelong on and off again church attendee and he never fully got that until he started a massive Bible study (on his own) several years ago. That is sad, is it not?

Somewhere along the way, some faith communities have lost something valuable and precious. The Bride of Christ (Catholic and Protestant) is turning folks away by the droves.

So many people I know are like East Texas and myself. They are spiritual but not religious. They pray, they read their Bibles but they do not regularly attend church.

Thanks all for the lively discussion! You both help me learn and adjust my thoughts/ideas on my walk to the Cross.

I watched the video with interest. But (ya know maybe I should rename myself "BUT")

1. I thought the word Armageddon came from the Hebrew word har megiddo meaning "Mountain of Megiddo". So that is an interesting observation that it doesn't mean what I thought.

2. "Mount" Megiddo is a Tell on which ancient forts were built to guard the main highway, the Via Maris, which connected Ancient Egypt with Mesopotamia. There were two, early, famous battles fought at Megiddo - one in the 15th BC and one in about 700 BC (if memory serves).

3. Doesn't the Bar Kokhba revolt (132–136 CE) satisfy this portion of the Revelation prophecy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

As to the premise that Armaggedon is a battle of the mind between God and Lucifer - yes, I agree with that.

I, however, cannot wrap my mind around the concept of which day you worship being which being you worship?

Does this mean that because the Lord Jesus calls me to worship on Sunday that I am somehow worshipping Lucifer?



Sorry but - nuh unh! No no

Again we come back to the Law of Moses and to:

1. The Law of Moses is dead - all of it - including the 10 commandments. For you see, the Law of Moses (all 600+ laws) must be kept entirely (which is impossible as we know) or it must not be kept at all. The Law of Christ (love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself) encompasses the 10 commandments. Grace brings us salvation - something the Law of Moses never could.

If you truly follow the Law of Christ you are, indeed, following the 10 commandments. For if you truly love your neighbor you will not:

Covet your neighbor's wife/property
Commit murder
etc., etc.

2. We also must consider The Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15) and what the Church Fathers wrote to Gentile believers:



No keeping the feasts, no Saturday sabbath, few dietary laws.

Am I missing something?

What am I not getting here?